From Critically Combat Wounded to Esquire with Attorney Estefan Encarnacion
Warriors, Fall In…
Today, we’re joined with a Combat Marine Corps Veteran, who survived a deadly explosion during his Operation Iraqi Freedom deployment in 2004.
This battle-tested warrior continued to fight-on through his wounds and successfully transition beyond the uniform, followed his goals, and is now a practicing attorney in the state of California, which is no easy task.
Passing the California State Bar is considered one of the toughest exams in the United States, let alone his achievement of earning his Juris Doctorate. Today, I am joined with Estefan Encarnacion.
Connect with Estefan via LinkedIn:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/estefan-encarnacion-60396799/
Email Estefan:
estefan@ebllawgroup.com
This episode is powered by ACT NOW Education. Go to www.actnoweducation.com for free, comprehensive, educational resources and opportunities for active duty, veterans, military spouses and children
Estefan Encarnacion, Esq.:If you ever been involved in an explosion, you don't hear it and you don't see it. It's, it's, it's too fast. Like it's too fast for your body to react to know how, even what's happening right. So I never heard an explosion and never saw anything. The one memory that I have that night is I was touching my face. And I know I was like, sitting down on the on the ground and just touching my face and it was all wet. And I thought that somebody had drawn a bucket of water on me or like a canteen on me, just because I was like, "Why? Why am I wet? Like what's going on?" Like, did I fall asleep or something? And yeah, it turns out that was just blood, like I was just drenched in blood.
KP:For years fall in, it's time for formation. So today, we're joined with the Marine combat veteran who survived a deadly explosion during his Operation Iraqi Freedom deployment in 2004. This battle tested warrior continued to fight on through his wounds and successfully transitioned beyond the uniform. He followed his goals. And now he's a practicing attorney in the state of California, which is no easy task in itself. Passing the California State Bar is considered to be one of the toughest exams in United States, not to mention the achievement of him earning his Juris Doctorate as well. Today, I'm joined with Stefan Encarnacion. Sir, I want to thank you for joining us on The Morning Formation Podcast today.
Estefan Encarnacion, Esq.:No, the pleasure is mine. Thank you for the invitation.
KP:Listen, the honor is all on this end of the microphone. And before the podcast started rolling, we were kind of talking about our time during deployment. We were in Iraq around the same time, but we were in complete different areas. And you told me a little bit about what you did when you were in the Marines. But let's take it back to the beginning. Would you mind telling our audience where you're originally from? And why you decided to choose the Marines over all other branches?
Estefan Encarnacion, Esq.:It's a little convoluted. It's not, it's not the straight, straight path to the Marine Corps. So I was actually born in Costa Rica. My mother is Costa Rican. And my father, he's, I call him, he's a New York Rican. Right. So he's actually, he was born in the Bronx, New York. But his whole family is Puerto Rican. My parents met in New York. But then, you know, decided to come down to Costa Rica, which is where I was born, ultimately. Then my parents separated early on, which then moved my mom to California. So by the time I was two years old, I was, we were living in California. My dad was a Marine. He was drafted into Vietnam, actually. So before he got drafted, he actually volunteered. He knew he was gonna get drafted. So he just volunteered anyways. So he was, he had joined the Marine Corps during his time when he was 18. His job in the Marine Corps was in comms with specifically with the air unit. So he was, he was working on the comms for for jets. That's what he was assigned to. I don't know if he, if he actually ever saw any combat or not. My father has been diagnosed with schizophrenia, amongst other mental illnesses since I ever knew him. Right. So despite all of that we, my mom, my mother and I, and my stepdad, we eventually moved back to Costa Rica. And so I actually did all my high school years there. So by the time I was ready to graduate, I was like, "Look, I love Costa Rica, Costa Rica is awesome. But I really don't see myself like earning a living and making it, making it there. I want to be independent. I don't want to....Just establish myself and not have to rely on my parents or for anything like that. Right. I'd always kept in touch with my dad. So he was he was helpful in that regard. But he definitely discouraged me from joining the Marine Corps. He was like, "Son don't do it like, don't. It's not, yeah, you go just go straight to college. You don't need to do this." So he always kind of discouraged that, from me from joining. But that was, I don't know, since I was like, 15 years old, probably. I started, you know, like, trying to figure out like, how am I going to kind of be able to become independent on my own right, like, stand on my own two feet. I don't, I don't want to rely on my parents for their help. I seen that struggle this whole time. And their hustle, their struggle that's for them, like, that's, that's for them to, you know, take advantage of and benefit from. Let me do my own thing. And so that's kind of what led me to, to this, just this straight up, like, I had it in my mind, "I'm not going to do anything else except join the Marine Corps, as soon as I graduate from high school." And over there, Costa Rica, we graduate at the end of the year, so in December. So in December 2000, that's when I graduated. I literally in less than 30 days, so I paid for a flight ticket, come to California, and went to the nearest recruiter, took the ASVAB test. I scored pretty high on the ASVAB. So the recruiter was like, here's the whole book, you know, do whatever you want. I was I mean, I shut the recruiters book down. I was like, "Look, I just want to be in the infantry." He was like, "You're a hard charger so I will make sure that you get a stripe as soon as you get out of bootcamp." So I got, I got a PFC, I was a PFC at a bootcamp. I joined in January of 2001. So literally, a few days after graduating from MCRD. And, I mean, I didn't know all the jobs, right. Being in the infantry, but I definitely knew that it that's, that's the one thing that I wanted to do. I always figured if I'm going to join the Marine Corps, that I might as well, you know, be a badass, right? And actually, like, earn my like, that's how I felt about it. I wanted to make my life difficult. And I wanted to push myself physically, in a way that I've never done. Because up to that point, all I ever did was play soccer. And so this was going to be different. Plus, I was kind of burnt out from high school, in the sense that I went to a college preparatory High School. They had this thing called an International Baccalaureate. I don't know if you've ever heard of that?
KP:No.
Estefan Encarnacion, Esq.:And so an International Baccalaureate is it's like a, it's a special set of classes that you take, they're almost equivalent to like AP classes right here in the US. So it's like as if you only took AP classes during your last three years of high school. So that's what I decided to do. So I got a bachelor's, an international diploma, that I could go to any high school in any, across the country or across the world, basically. But I was kind of burnt out, right, like so this was not a regular high school. This was an actual college preparatory. And so I was just like, let me just take a break. And let me just join the Marine Corps while I'm at it. And then, you know, once I graduated boot camp, then I could choose my job, and I chose to be a machine gunner. And so I landed, like, I guess there wasn't that many people applying to be machine gunners at the time. So I definitely got what I signed up for. This was all before 911, right? Like, this is all during peacetime. There hasn't been any wars for years, right? Like there's no been, there hasn't been any active military hot zones that we anybody was getting deployed to. So I figured, you know, it's just gonna be a great training program for the next four years. And then obviously, 911 happened a few months later. That's when everything kind of kind of flipped the scripts. Right?
KP:Right. Yeah, changed a lot. I changed a lot actually. I joined in. I joined in 1999. And that was way before September 11, obviously. So you know, with, with every basic training, every recruit class that comes through, I think every branch they always do that thing where like a couple of weeks into it, they bring everyone into the room and you're kind of cut off from society. You don't know what's going on. So then they make up this story about "We're going to war." And it just is it's supposed to, like invoke this emotion in you. Right. And so they did that to us in 1999. But it was the real deal Holyfield with you when you joined. Now, you were still not in boot camp at that time, right. You were already out of boot camp when September 11th hit?
Estefan Encarnacion, Esq.:I was already in the fleet. I was already in my with my unit. Oh, when I joined the Marine Corps, I'd never knew...I only thought that the Marine Corps had bases next to the sea. Little did I know, there's a beautiful base called Twentynine Palms. That's in the middle of nowhere, right, in the middle of the Mojave Desert. And that was good. That was my station. That's what that was my duty station for for that time.
KP:That's what I love about it the most, I think. And I got to ask you, Estefan, because you went in the Marines, and it was Marines or nothing. Right. And so, with you having the type of education that you had at the time, you must have scored really well on the ASVAB.
Estefan Encarnacion, Esq.:Yeah, I started with like a 96 on the ASVAB.
KP:Wow. And so you could have went Air Force, Navy, if you had known to even look in that direction, right? I bet you the Marine recruiters were salivating when you showed up.
Estefan Encarnacion, Esq.:They were. They were like you're a hard charger. Like we've never seen this like this. I mean, he's like, "You can do any job and like any job. Just choose any job." Like, "No, I don't want to do...I just want to be in the infantry, bro, like, I just want to just go through the hardship, like earn my shit."
KP:Wow, that is hardcore, man. I mean, you you didn't have to go that route. But you chose to go that route. Now, when you went into the Marines, did you have goals of going to college and utilizing the GI Bill and all that stuff? Or did you even know anything about that?
Estefan Encarnacion, Esq.:Definitely. Definitely. Like, that's the part of the whole thing, right? Like, I wanted to be able to afford my own life. Right. Like, I was very grateful for the my parents and like, the opportunities that they gave me. But I saw my parents struggle. And we struggled like we were poor. Like when we when I was growing up here in California, like, you know, we lived in Inglewood during the during the early 90s, early 80s. That was a dangerous, dangerous place to live at during that period of time.
KP:The riots.
Estefan Encarnacion, Esq.:Yeah, exactly. I lived in the ghetto, like we
KP:Yeah. were poor. Like I remember, my parents would, we would go to the park to like play basketball or anything like that. And then after we're done playing basketball, we'd had to get a bag and go through all the garbage cans to collect cans and shit, right. Like, it was a normal thing for us, for me at least. Right. But, you know, in retrospect, I was like, "Damn, we were poor as hell." You know, like, we were, like, this is how we had to grab the, you know, to get by. And so I saw that struggle with my parents, and I appreciated it. But, you know, I always felt like no, that was, that's for them. You know, I have a sister that's 10 years younger than I. So I didn't want to like feel like an extra burden for them. So I want to try and become independent as possible. And yeah, going to, getting the GI Bill was like the number one thing. Like, okay, I can, you know, my dad, because my dad was service disabled, so I learned that if I were to attend any any public college in California, that I would get a tuition fee reduction based on his percentage of disability and he was 100%. So I knew that I could kind of bank on that, plus the GI Bill would be enough to carry me through at least a bachelor's degree. So yeah, I definitely made sure that I was going to benefit from, from that experience, right. Which is a little difficult. I realized when you're, again, when you're stationed at Twentynine Palms, and there ain't nothing out there to do except get in trouble. So, I was one of the very few, few guys from my platoon to actually get a good conduct metal. Out of over 100 people, only five of us got it. I was one of those five. Lot of troublemakers in my platoon. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, that's how normally is, you know, a bunch of young folks in the Marines, out away from home, getting paid a paycheck. They have barracks with, staying with other people their own age, like what, what's to be expected? And for folks out there that I don't know, Twentynine Palms is like next to Joshua Tree National Park. It's literally in the high desert. It's hot. There's nothing out there, except for reptiles and cactus basically. And it's it's definitely, I don't know how you could possibly get in trouble out there. I guess I guess there's creative ways that Marines can figure it out. And probably some Army folks too, right?
Estefan Encarnacion, Esq.:Well, yeah, the easiest way of getting in trouble just because of disrespecting your seniors and not not obeying lawful orders, right. Like getting kind of a lot of fraternization. Right, so it's pretty rowdy in those days. And then so so when 911 happened, we were out in the field, and doing an exercise, and that's kind of...we had already been out in the field for like, almost a whole week. And then we got the news through the, through the radio. And then you know, our battalion commander, and we have some guys from the East Coast, so they're like, "You guys need to call home and, you know, make sure that your people are okay." But from that point on, that was like, the whole thing was like, alright, gents, like, we're the tip of the spear. You know, we're the premier desert trained unit, for the Marine Corps. Know for a fact that any deployment, it's going to be us, right. And so, but by that time, we had already kind of been well indoctrinated, and well trained to like, I don't think there was that many people. We had some deserters, like, as soon as that news broke out, a handful of people were out. They bounced. They went AWOL, right. And so that was a handful of people, but the rest of us you know were kind of like pumped to be honest. Like, "Alright, cool. Let's do it. This is what we trained for." Yeah.
KP:Yeah. At the time, I was enlisted in the National Guard, we had the same thing, too. Where you had those guys that ran for like 20-25 years or whatever. And they were legacy E-4s. They were just there, doing their doing their one weekend, a month deal. And as soon as September 11 happened and people started getting deployed, then the next year, you started seeing the numbers start to drop. And people were just getting out, going AWOL or whatever.
Estefan Encarnacion, Esq.:That's crazy.
KP:Yeah, we experienced the same thing on my end. Now, so Esteban, when you did deploy to Iraq in 2004, you deployed in early 2004, around February. Where were you deployed to? And what was your job while you were there? What rank were you at that time?
Estefan Encarnacion, Esq.:So I was the corporal at that time. And so when we got to Iraq, actually, we got we first landed in Kuwait, which is south of, south of Iraq. And so we had to do a whole battalion trail through from the southern tip of Iraq, all the way through Baghdad. All the way through, but it was, it took about four days.
KP:You had convoy, convoy through, basically into country and all the way up to where you're going.
Estefan Encarnacion, Esq.:Yeah, which is kind of crazy because you're like "Damn, we're like getting inserted into a combat zone and we have to drive through it."
KP:And and not only that, but like back when you went through, that's when, that's before the level three tar deck armor was mandatory to be outside the wire. So you were, you were dealing with ghetto metal and sand. What we called ghetto metal and sandbags, which is basically you weld your own reinforcement steel onto your own vehicles and you throw sandbags on the floor. And there is no windows. There's just a hole next to you and you just kind of lean back out of the way
Estefan Encarnacion, Esq.:Bro we did not have any upgraded right? armor. We're in the Marine Corps, right. We get the scraps, we get the leftovers. We barely had sandbags to put in our floorboards, to tamper the blow or whatever. But we had no like no upgraded side panels. We didn't even have bulletproof windshields, when we were traveling. We got that much later.
KP:Yeah.
Estefan Encarnacion, Esq.:So with my particular unit, I was always the lead vehicle and I was driver. I was always the driver for the lead vehicle. That's kind of like the relationship that I had with our little squad commander, which is a sergeant. Him and I kind of rose through the ranks together. So he trusted me a lot with my ability to think on my own, right.
KP:Right.
Estefan Encarnacion, Esq.:To be lead vehicle driver. So that's, that was that was basically my job and we, you know, we have a full Humvee with, we had a 50 Cal, with our gunner. But yeah,
KP:Yeah, no, I totally understand what you're saying. driving through country was a very interesting experience. You know, you see camels on the side of the road. I've never seen like, it was totally....right. I thought joining the Marine Corps was a culture shock, like driving through Iraq was a whole other experience. Right. And I can't, I can't imagine like, what what that must have been like. Because your job was to patrol and clear the routes like for your AO, right?
Estefan Encarnacion, Esq.:Right. Right. That was, that was our assignment, though, you know. We had 12 hour patrols every other day. And our job, I mean, they needed us to, they needed to see us and we had to whether we had, you know, resupply or not of ammo, whether we got shot at, whether we, you know, engaged or not. We would have to, you know, survey the route, and basically kind of act like guinea pigs to draw up the enemy. And particularly, to draw out the IED of the roadside bombs because that was our that was like, our main thing was to make sure that we, to catch any people, putting the roadside bombs. Or, you know, if we see, something's fishy on the side of the road, call EOD out to come in to dismantle the bombs. You know, before my accident happened, I had, we had already survived about four blasts four IED blasts that you, like, they would just blow up right in front of us or like, right behind us, right. And, you know, you're these blasts ocurred in areas, like desolate. There's just like, alright, you you see the explosion? And then what do you do? Like, because there's like, no one for miles. Right? Right, like guys who are using cell phones and would be like, behind the hill, you know, mile or two away. And with like, Colin, and you'd be able to detonate it remotely?
KP:How long was it? So February you you arrived in Iraq? And then how long was it until you had your, your incident with the the big explosion that actually took you out of deployment?
Estefan Encarnacion, Esq.:Yeah, so actually, the anniversary was not too long ago, the accident actually happened on July 19, of 2004. Which I didn't realize it was Father's Day, at least this year it was. So that was about four months after I had arrived. Our, we were supposed to be there for eight months total, right? You know, in that four month period, we, our battalion or our platoon had already suffered a handful of casualties already from either an IED or someone got shot, and passed away. So, you know, we had already kind of dealt with a little bit of that, right, like that loss.You know, leaving the wire. Every time we left late there was...And I'm sure you I mean, it's kind of like the military way of doing things, I guess is that, you know, you gotta you gotta have a good time while you're out there. Because yeah, you just never know if you're gonna come back or not. Right. And so we're all a bunch of young guys, right? So all we do is just bust each other's nuts all the time. Just crack on each other for silly things, right. That's how you make sense of it. Right. Like how you actually live through this. Because, you know, we we get shot at. Just, it's, it's hard to, like, want to react in a super aggressive manner, knowing that there's really, it's almost impossible to figure out who you're shooting at. And you don't, I don't want to be accused of being a war criminal, right. By the rules of engagement, right. We always had to respect the rules of engagement. I took that seriously. I was very conscious of the fact like, you know, we're wearing a uniform but dude, we're in a totally different country. Right. And it was, it was, it was ideologically speaking is, no one ever, while you're there,...I don't think any one of us ever really had that conversation like, "What are we doing here? Like, why are we even here?" Like no one really thought of that. We all just knew we were there. Right. Like while we're here, we just need to survive, right. Like let's just do what we need to do so we don't get our assets chewed, and you know, survive the mission and come back to base. Like, that's basically what we were doing. But yeah, I mean, that experience like it, it kind of, I don't know how many people are ready to die, but we definitely were. Right. And it's just not something that you
KP:Yeah. really contemplate, though. Right. And you know, one thing is, is dying. And I guess, and this is the one thing for sure, I never thought, maybe you share the same feeling. I never thought that, I would always think "Either I survive, or I die." Not that I will survive and be mangled for the rest of my life, or that I'll be, you know, disabled or, you know, not have my five senses, or I'll have like, a missing limb. Like, that's something that I never thought of. I never ever thought of, you know, being a disabled vet. Right.
Estefan Encarnacion, Esq.:If that makes any sense, right. I'd rather have died in glorious combat, right. Like this kind of like,
KP:No, I totally feel you on that, man. I understand what you're saying. 100%. And, you know, some of us, we're fortunate to have gone through some very serious, violent IED attacks, small arms fire, RPG. And some of us have witnessed it as well. You know, I'd like to know how far deep you'd like to dive into the incident that you had, that the IED that you hit that actually sent you home and took out some of your fellow Marines?
Estefan Encarnacion, Esq.:We can dive into it 100%. And so it was on the way up to that hill, right. This was like a hill that was off the side of the road. Not too far from the road, but it's definitely a hill that we had used in the past. Right. And it was kind of, I guess, an obvious thing that we would use it again. And so it was...
KP:So they knew that.
Estefan Encarnacion, Esq.:Yeah, so they knew, I mean, it was kind of, we made it easy for them, right. This was during, like in the dead of the middle of the night. So it was probably like maybe 3 or 4am in the morning. And the only reason why, I survived was because I was actually wearing my helmet that night. Because, you know, during the daytime wearing your helmet inside a Humvee is just unimaginable, right. Like the heat, your your brain will fry, literally. And so we never wore, like we never ever wore helmets. The only reason why we wore a helmet was because we were using our night vision goggles attached to the helmet. So I was driving, you know, with our NVGs on. And you drive slow, you can't really drive fast, especially an out, when you're out in the field. So I was creeping up the side of the road up the hill. And that's pretty much my last memory. What ended up happening was the rear tire, the rear driver's side tire of the Humvee went right over of what they told us later was a double stacked, anti-tank landmine. And so had it been the front tire, I wouldn't be here. I don't think any of us would have survived the front tire. But the back tire, you know, most of the explosion generated outside of the vehicle and right underneath the vehicle. But with that said, you know, Staff Sergeant, you know, when you sit in the back, you're literally, your ass is right over the wheel well of that vehicle. And so the Staff Sergeant, he passed away immediately. Like, instantly his body was mush, essentially, from what I remember, kind of hearing. But so, you know, I, you know, if you've ever been involved in an explosion, you don't hear it and you don't see it. No, it's it's it's too fast. Like it's too fast for your body to react, to know how even what's happening, right. So I never heard an explosion, I never saw anything. The one memory that I have from that night was, I was touching my face. And I know I was like, sitting down on the on the ground, and just touching my face. And it was all wet. And I thought that somebody had thrown a bucket of water on me or like a canteen on me, just because I was like, "Why? Why am I wet? Like what's going on? Like, did I fall asleep or something?" And, yeah, it turns out that was just blood, like, I was just drenched in blood. So because I was front driver, and the blast was from behind, the force of that, basically shoved my face right into the windshield. And we actually, we had bulletproof windshield at that time, finally. So you know, you know, you know, you don't go through that, right, you just slam into it. And so the force of that explosion, made every single bone in my face fracture. So, I mean, I still have have a major scar from ear to ear. That was for them to repair, pull down my skin and to repair my forehead. So my forehead had it was cracked in two places. My whole nose is made out of metal. My cheekbones were fractured. My upper palate was fractured. My jaw was fractured in three places. And I had a fractured vertebrae. You know, you don't feel any of that. I had to have, because of the trauma was to my face, and to my, my breathing. They had to do an emergency tracheotomy. Because the swelling would have prevented me and the coughing of the blood and all that stuff, would have would have choked me, right. And so I had to have a tracheotomy on the field. You know, once I, I had an opportunity to like, sit back and touch my face and realize that I wasn't moving. And I was kind of in that incident. I was like, "Okay, well, I don't know what happened to me. I don't know what happened. But I'm pretty sure I'm going home." And that was kind of like, once I did hear the metal back, like I heard that the helicopter come coming by, whizzing whizzing over us. And that's that's kind of like the last memory before I start to wake up in the hospital. Like I knew I knew something serious happened, right. I do remember vividly someone saying like, "Staff Sergeant is dead. Like he's gone, he passed away." But I could never confirm that information. Right. Like, you know, that was kind of like...the challenge is that you never, you never expect this to happen. Like yeah, you kind of hear of it. You see other people go through it, but you'd never expect for it to happen to you. I was very fortunate the way that the accident happened for me. You know, I was I was next on the list to not be here, basically, had it not been for the amazing jobs that everybody in the medical field, you know, you know, it's crazy. In my whole entire life, I've never been in the hospital ever, ever, for anything. And this was my first experience to be hospitalized. You know, the one thing that they don't necessarily prepare you for is that your one day you're like, you know, you're chumming it up with your buddies. Like you're, you rely on each other, you count on each other. Like you're you're in the thick of it all. Like just completely reliant on each other to survive, and then instantly you're gone from them. Like I felt so powerless that I couldn't do anything to be there for my for my buddies. I felt like I was unjustifiably torn away from them, like I couldn't. That was a hard thing to, to go through. Like you're not, you're training so much that you don't even think about yourself even though you're still recovering from your injury. Like "How can I, how can I actually be there?" Like "I shouldn't be here all fucked up. I shouldn't be here. I should be there with my buddies in fucking combat." Right. Like, I should be there for them. And that's just some. It's, it's a weird, it's something, it's unique, right. Like, you will never have that experience with anyone else right or for any other people. And then, you know, having to, to learn on my own that Staff Sergeant...confirmed, I confirmed the staff sergeant's death on that website, that lists all the people who have passed away during combat. I saw his name and, you know, that's when it really hit me. Because I had huge survivor's guilt. I felt, I had to reconcile the fact that I was the driver, and that it wasn't my fault that I went over a landmine, right. Like, that's just some shit, like some silly stuff that you should never even have to think like that. But you're so trained. You know, you're you're like, everything has a, everything you replay it in your mind. Like, "What could I have done differently? Could I swerve this way or that?" Like, you know, there's so many ways of trying to justify the death of the Staff Sergeant that, you know, you just drive yourself insane. And long story short, you know, I was already at the end of my deployment or my service. That happened in the third year of service. So I was hospitalized for a total of three and a half months. But they patched me up, right. They, there was a 24 hour surgery, basically, with eight different specialist. They did everything to put me back together. You know, my my mouth was wired for, wired shut for about two months. And then when I woke up, I was actually still, my eyes were still so swollen that I couldn't even see. So I wake up in the hospital mute because I can't talk and blind. I can't see anything. And the first thought that came to my head, and I'm sure you've heard this referred to is Metallica the "One." That was the first thought that came to my mind. I was like, "Fuck, I'm like this guy from that fucking music video." And that's horrible, right. Because I had no idea how long I had to recover. I had no idea if I had any limbs or not like I couldn't tell anything, right. That was pretty difficult to kind of go through. But, you know, we had a Marine Corps liaison hospital, and their job, their sole purpose in life is to make your life better, right. Like, whatever little thing, little comfort that they can do for you, like, those Marines that were there....I mean, the whole hospital staff like, was just amazing, right. Like, I've never experienced that level of care in my life. Like,...
KP:This is a Walter Reed, right?
Estefan Encarnacion, Esq.:Yeah. Walter Reed. So back in the day, it was used to be called the National Naval Medical Center. And so, you know, we had Navy docs ataking care of you and the corpsman and, and the Marine Corps liaison. Like that's, that was, I was very fortunate, I was extremely fortunate that my parents, and my sister, my sister was on vacation from school, to you know, she's 10 years younger than I am. So she was in middle school. My parents could afford to leave walk away from their jobs. Basically, they were there the whole entire time. Like I saw my parents and my sister for the whole three months that I was there, they were there. And not everybody had that. In fact, I was probably the only one who had that benefit of having my parents, my family be there. In the hospital, like, that's where I saw like, really fucked up people like that, like real that, that they will never recover. Like, there's no amount of physical therapy. Yeah, like, I never. I was very, very fortunate. Like, you just don't realize it. Yeah. While you're there.
KP:Wow. I mean, that's...you've been through a lot, man. And you're very positive about a lot of your misfortunes and kind of seeing the glass as being half full a lot of times. I mean, you're blown up, sent home, put in a coma for quite a while, and then when you woke up, you know, you had all this surgery done to you, couldn't see. And you're still, you're still thankful that your parents were there when so many other folks didn't have the same opportunity as you. And, you know, that's, that's, that's a good mentality to have, to keep yourself sane.
Estefan Encarnacion, Esq.:Definitely. It was, even the doctors were like, you know, the fact that you had your, your family with you, that helps your body to like, it makes you want to recover. So you can get the hell out of here and go back and do your, you know, resume your life.
KP:Right.
Estefan Encarnacion, Esq.:I was very blessed and fortunate that that I had that. I probably wouldn't have had a speedy recovery had it not been for that.
KP:So once you did recover once you did get out of the hospital, and you're out of the Marines, at what point did you decide to go to attend college and...?
Estefan Encarnacion, Esq.:Immediately, immediately. Like I was, you know, again, like I was on a hiatus right. In my mind, a break from, a much needed break from the rigorous academic life that I had given myself already. What I didn't realize is that four years is a long damn time. I mean, I know like the Army offers two years, or at least they use to, a two year contract. But in retrospect, I was like, "Damn, four years, frickin four years, but it's not, it doesn't go like quick, especially when you're stationed in the middle of nowhere. Yeah. But, you know, to be honest with
KP:Right. you, the...what inspired me the most is really, when Staff Sergeant and like, I couldn't believe it. Like I never, and this probably happens to a lot of people, you know, I never went to seek therapy. I never went to get mental health treatment. Yeah, you would be seen as, like,... Weak, right, weak and everything else, right.
Estefan Encarnacion, Esq.:And I should have, I should have done that a long time ago. But you know, I never wanted to have the Staff Sergeant's death be in vain. I felt it was my moral obligation to ensure that I do something good. And I do something worthy in my life to to ensure that, you know, his, his death was worth something. Right. And so it inspired me to, to really excel. And, you know, I went straight to college. I enrolled in Cal State San Bernardino, that was the nearest university that I could go to, and I just went head in 100%. You know, I never actually,until after I finished my bachelor's degree, but during this whole time, I never thought I was, you know, my whole thing was I wanted to go to medical school. I wanted to be a doctor. The doctors that saved my life and repaired like, I was eternally grateful to them. And I, I was, you know, I felt like I had the capacity to do that, that I could also give back and that I could also, you know, save someone else's life and I wanted to be an ER doc, right?.Like, that's, that's what I was kind of shooting for. So my
KP:Four or five years, right. undergrad, I overloaded every single class, every single semester...at Cal State they did quarters. So I overloaded every quarter. So I didn't realize either that the GI bill or at least you know, the the regular GI bill, not the post 911, you know, the GI bill only gave you 36 months of benefits. That's only three years. Most colleges are four year programs...
Estefan Encarnacion, Esq.:I had no, I didn't realize that, that you were still getting screwed after the fact. I was like, "Damn it, alright, I gotta finish this shit quick, then." That's why I overloaded every single opportunity I had. But I had, so I ended up finishing with a bachelor's degree in anthropology and a minor in pre-med biology. With the idea that once I finish, I was going to have the opportunity to sit down and take my time to study for the MCAT, alright, so the the Medical College Admission Test. Because that's what I really wanted to do. I want to be a doctor. I graduated in 2008, as like, right when the market crashed. And one of the things that they don't necessarily prepare you for, is that once you've finish your GI Bill, like it's done. There's no, there's no more, like you're done with school, then you're done getting paid. And that was kind of a shocking realization. Because I was like, "Oh, I can get a job, alright, I know, it's gonna be it's gonna, I know it's gonna finish up. But I'm just gonna get a job, right. I can get, I can get any job. Just I can study, right?" That job never came. Because the market destroyed everything. And no one was hiring. And at that time, I was like, Well, you know, what was my experience at that time? Well, I was a machine gunner in the infantry, the Marine Corps, and I have a degree in anthropology. "Who the hell is going to hire me?" Right like that. Like, I felt like I shot myself in the foot. Like, I was, like, "Damn." I started like, thinking back and like, "Man, I should have chosen a better job when I was in the Marine Corps. Like, I had, like, zero life skills. Like what "Am I gonna do like, be a security guard, like, or go and, and like join the police force?" Like, I already went through trauma in my life, I never want to put myself in that position, again, where I'm going to, you know, get blown up or get injured for someone else's benefit. I just, I was I was I was done putting myself at risk, which is something that you you don't think of, like, you just don't think of it like that, when you're, when you're in it.
KP:I really think what you're talking about right now, too, it underlines the extreme importance, to have a mentor. To have someone that can lead you and guide you to not take the long route, but take the shorter route, and be a little bit more, I guess, pointed, whenever you are moving in a direction. I mean, you you did a lot of great things, and you were progressing and moving, but I really feel like you were you kind of went that route thing, sort of the long way and then realized, oh, like "What, like, what did I just do?" You know, and, and that's, you know, that's why, one of the reasons why I started this, The Morning Formation, because I wanted to provide that that guidance, you know.
Estefan Encarnacion, Esq.:There was so much. You know, I'm a first gen everything. Well, not military, but I'm a first gen, I
KP:Right. mean,...so funny story. From my mom's side of the family, I'm the only person to ever join the military. From my dad's side,
Estefan Encarnacion, Esq.:For your children, and whoever which I've never even, like, my dad never had a relationship with his family, so hence, I didn't have one. From my dad's side of the family, everybody was in the military. And so, they like, you know. So for, you know, like, I never really had anybody to guide me through the military. I never, you know, I was a first generation college student, my parents never went to college. So, you know, this is a lot of stuff, guys. And then as you added the fact that you're in the Marine Corps, you want to be self reliant, right. You never want to seek help. And that's just the worst advice that you can ever follow. No, dude, get help, ask questions, like, doesn't matter if you think you're gonna look stupid or whatever, like, just do it. Like you're gonna, you know, it's gonna be so much easier for yourself. And really not just for yourself, but for your, for your future. Right. you're really doing anything for. I'm all for, like, having a difficult experience and learning from it, but not at the expense. It's expensive.
KP:Yeah. And if it's not necessary. It's not necessary. And to some extent, I was my own worst enemy to like, I wasn't out trying to find mentors to help me transition out of the military at all, like I was doing it on my own. And matter of fact, I mentioned, I think two weeks ago, I was in a podcast and I mentioned how I avoided TAPS. Like I purposely went in there on the last day and just said, "Hey, sign..." because I was a captain. I could do that, I just walked in there and said, "Hey, sign this." Like, oh, "Well, you didn't go through any..."Well, I don't want to like just sign it. I'm out of here. I'm done." And they did. I regret it.
Estefan Encarnacion, Esq.:It's so crazy you mentioned it because yeah, I mean, I was enlisted right. Like the whole officer side, like that's just a whole other world.
KP:(laughing)
Estefan Encarnacion, Esq.:You just don't, you know, you always, it's just such a different thing, right. Like we never fraternize, right, outside of, you know, being in our unit. And so it was never, it was a, it was always felt like a different...like, I felt like you guys had it like figured
KP:Yeah, no. Not at all. I was probably my own worst enemy out. actually. I thought I knew what I was doing. I thought I was hot shit. Like I thought "I'll come back from Iraq, I'll get my graduates degree and then I'll leave and then everybody in the world is gonna want to hire me because I was an Army officer and I was in Iraq." And, no, that wasn't the case at all. It was like, when I got out, it was like, "So what did you do in the military? And what is that?" Like having to explain that in layman's terms is very difficult for me. And I, yeah, and like I said, I admittedly, I avoided TAPS. I avoided any kind of transition out of the military because I wanted to do it on my own. So yeah, that that wasn't exactly how it plays out for the officer side. But now for you, when you finished up your undergrad, now, what point did you decide to become an attorney?
Estefan Encarnacion, Esq.:Yeah, so almost a year had passed from when I graduated, to where...Yeah, again, so my parents had stayed in Costa Rica after I got out. And so again, like, I never wanted to rely on them to help me, I just wanted to do my own thing and be like a self made person, right. So I didn't have any financial assistance anywhere, like I was burning through my credit cards using one credit card to pay another credit card. Like, I was fortunate enough at the time to have purchased a home, but I wasn't paying the mortgage anymore. Like everything was just going slowly, just deteriorating, to where almost a year passed from when I graduated. And then my girlfriend at the time, she had always wanted to be a lawyer. And so she was the one who's like, "Look, Estefan, I don't see you studying for the MCAT. Why don't you try the LSAT? Like, you can be a lawyer. And you know, if, if your goal is that you want to help people, you can still do that as an attorney." And I never, that never crossed my mind ever at all, ever in my life. I always thought that attorneys were the lowest of the low and that it wasn't even like a real challenge to do this. I was like "Nah, attorney compared to a medical doctor. Like, there's a difference here." Right, like, but you know, I was, I mean, I wasn't studying for the MCAT. I knew that for sure. It's like, okay, well, let's just do it. Let me just study for this LSAT real quick. And see what happens. I mean, I, I never... she's like, but when I put up excuses, because I was like, "Well, I didn't even get a degree in anything related to the law." She was like, "No, law schools don't give a crap about what you got your undergrad in like, they just want to know that you got an undergrad period." I was like, "Well, what about this test, like this test is, I'm sure it's gonna ask something about the law." Like, "No, this LSAT doesn't ask you a freaking thing about the law at all, like all it is, is just analytical, reading comprehension, logic games and, and speed. You just got to be able to think quick under pressure." I was like, "Alright, well, I think I can do this. I mean, it's a good challenge." So...
KP:I think that defines you all together. I mean, you're intelligent. We left high school, you did all those great things, like decisions on your feet when you're in the Marines. I mean.
Estefan Encarnacion, Esq.:Yeah. So literally, I had about three weeks to study for the LSAT. And I spent, you know, I took some of their practice exams and their little tests here and there. And I had three weeks to prepare for it. So I took the test, and I scored pretty, pretty decently on it. And the only college that was accepting applications at the time was La Verne, well La Verne, but actually there law school is in Ontario. And I applied with them, and they shot me back, saying, "You know what, we would love to have you and not only that, but we want to offer you a 95% scholarship to come to our law school."
KP:Wow.
Estefan Encarnacion, Esq.:I was like, "Well, I mean, I'm not gonna be an idiot to reject that offer."
KP:Did it have anything to do with your veteran status, or was it just because your tests, your test scores?
Estefan Encarnacion, Esq.:Mostly the LSAT. I mean, I think the veteran status helped a bit but they, law schools are like that. They focus heavily on your your LSAT and your undergrad, your GPA. But it was mostly the LSAT. So I scored, I scored a 160 on the LSAT, which is a pretty, pretty good score to get. Like to get into elite schools like Harvard and Yale, they want a 170. So I wasn't that far, you know, for first time, you know, thing that I only had three weeks to prepare for. But, you know, once I decided, once that letter came back, and they offered me a scholarship to go to law school, I was I was all in. I mean, I wasn't gonna, like, I was very appreciative of the fact that I and I realized that this just doesn't happen to everybody. Right? Like, like, I'm lucky, like, I made the effort, obviously, but, you know, like, one thing is getting in, the next thing is surviving it, and then actually becoming an attorney. Like, there's, there's steps to this, right. And at the same time along the way, you gotta, you gotta be a good boy, because you can't have any criminal history that's gonna, like, mess up your dreams, right? So mind you, this whole entire period of time, like I still haven't received any therapy, I never went to like to see a psychologist or to get any mental health treatment. I was just dealing with my own demons still. That was almost like 10 years after the fact. I finally got therapy. And, you know, it was kind of a breakthrough. I guess maybe after my first or second year of law school. I finally was able to, like, I was like, "You know what? I think I think I need to talk to somebody about this. Instead of just keeping it all. I need to make sense out of this," right. Like it needs to, it needs to come out. And I think that that was a pretty...Yeah, because I can talk about us so easily. And that helped me quite a bit. But I'd never I mean, I never I didn't have again, right? It's first gen, you treat yourself like shit. So you never seek any help. You never ask, you never raise your hand. You're always just want to be the background, not to embarrass yourself or whatever. So, yeah. And then I come to realize like this, I mean, after the fact. There's like a ton of resources for first generation students and for veterans, right? Like, I never, never thought of it, right. I've never wanted to use my veteran status to like, get ahead in life. I was like, "No, that was something that I did for me." You know, like, I volunteered. I wasn't drafted.
KP:Yeah, yeah, definitely. And I understand that 100%. And I also know that when you transition out of the military, just like when I talked about TAPS, and just saying here, sign this, and let me get out of here, it was the same deal with the whole mental evaluation side of it as well, it was the same deal where you go and talk to the counselors, and you're like, "Yeah, I'm fine. I'm fine. Just just sign this and let me let me go like, I'm good. Just leave me alone. Like I want to get out of here."And so that's, I think that's how we all handled that. Like, right after we were trying to get out. We just wanted to move on with their lives. Because it took me a while to like, I literally took my desert uniforms, all my class, my class A's, my dress blues, and I threw them away, literally threw them in the dumpster because I I just got tired of feeling like, like, this was not me anymore. And I needed to move on with my life. And so it took me a while to come around as well. And, you know, we talked about, you know, honestly, your life, you've done great things with your life, outstanding things you've overcame so much. But just imagine how far you would have gone if you just had mentorship from the beginning.
Estefan Encarnacion, Esq.:Exactly, exactly. Like, it's, I mean, that's I've been practicing law for eight years now. You know, it's almost, yeah. Two years, it'll be a 20 year anniversary from my accident. And if I had a mentor in my life, I would have definitely, I could be in a different position. Totally different position, right, a much better position.
KP:And I'm sure you're and I'm sure your father and family members were mentors for you, but I'm talking about a career mentor, somebody that's already in it, or just a little bit ahead of you is what I'm talking about. And do you, do any mentoring now or have you, I think you'd be a great a great Right, Yeah. And, and there's, and there's definitely mentor have you...?
Estefan Encarnacion, Esq.:Yeah, I haven't necessarily had the some good platforms out there. Like there's a Veterati. I don't opportunity to be a mentor to anyone in particular, but I would, I would love to help. I would love that opportunity to know if you're familiar with them? do that. I think that I think it's you know, my experience I'm not familiar with anybody. Dude doesn't need to necessarily be relived. Right. once I got into this career, to this field like, I'm just been like a one trick pony like mindset, like, successful. I need to do right, I need to learn law, right? Like I mean, you know, I have two partners and so I'm like the managing partner of our of our small firm out here, just trying to hustle and make living like everyone else. Right. Like,
KP:Yeah.
Estefan Encarnacion, Esq.:This is a business at the end of the day, it's not a charity. But at the same time, you still want to do good and do good for your clients and do good for the community. It's a challenge, like, so being an attorney is not for the faint hearted, like this is this is where you really get to make an impact in people's lives. And you make a huge impact, right? Like, these are, you're making, you're helping people in the most difficult life or period of their life, since that. No one wants to come to court, because they love it. Right? Like everyone's here because of a problem. And this is kind of where like the battle continues, right? Like me being a Marine, I still get to advocate, I still get to fight for what I believe is right, right. Which is a great opportunity for me to, to get that out of my system or to actually be able to live it. I think a lot of us, especially people who you know, were in the infantry, or who are you have that, that desire that spirit to fight or to, you know, have that energy to want to make a difference in this world and to see things that you can play a part in this in this process, right, but you can actually make an impact in people's lives.
KP:That's what I love about you is that you were enlisted Marine infantry. And now you're a practicing California Attorney, which like I mentioned before, passing that bar is no easy task, man. That's it. That's a huge challenge. It's like the toughest bar in the United States. Right.
Estefan Encarnacion, Esq.:It is in fact. And when you, when you pass it, the State Bar issues you a letter saying you have passed the most difficult bar exam throughout the 50 states.
KP:I love how accomplished you are. I love that you agreed to come on the podcast today. Because now you're exposed. You are going to be a mentor. And I hope that folks reach out to you. Yeah, because I mean, honestly, all the things that you went through in your own life should not be you know, in vain. I definitely would love for you to reach back and help out, you know, folks coming up behind you. Marines. If you're a Marine, listen to this podcast right now.
Estefan Encarnacion, Esq.:You know, I mean, I always have a preference and a special place in my heart for Marines, obviously, but any service member is worth it.
KP:Yeah,
Estefan Encarnacion, Esq.:We all go thorugh the same shit.
KP:So what's interesting is when I was a captain at the battalion, I was the s3 training officer. I had an E4 work for me back then. And I would tell him the same thing too. You know, at the time, I was getting my graduate degree and I was trying to talk him into going to the Education Center. And long story short today, he's a practicing attorney in the state of New York. So he got his commission, he did his time as a field artillery officer. And he went, got his Juris Doctorate after he got out of the army. And today he's a practicing. I'm very proud of him. Very proud of him. I keep in touch with him today.
Estefan Encarnacion, Esq.:This, this this is like the most interesting thing. So from my actual weapons company like from from my unit, during the period of time that I was there. There
KP:You got to be, in that case, you got to be persistent. Right. are four practicing attorneys that we were all enlisted. So I have one guy from my platoon, Johnny Hayes. He's an attorney in Michigan. I had a guy from the NB ones who the mortar man. He's an attorney in Kansas and Florida. And then we had a senior in my unit, machine gunner. He's also an attorney in Tennessee. And it's just so funny to me that all these like, crazy rowdy guys that I knew exactly who they were, what they did. Came up. We all came up to attorneys, you know, years after the fact. But, you know, it's like, people have a misconception about people who join the infantry. It's not just for rocks and like, it's not for the dummies like there's a lot of smart people who volunteer to be there. I'm not the only one. Like I have my my buddy and like this guy is now or was, he has a master's in engineering and he works used to work for the patent office, right. Like it's not, you know, this is a choice, right? We actively choose to do this, right. I mean, obviously, if your ASVAB score is kinda low your choice is...
Estefan Encarnacion, Esq.:Right. But you know, it was it was such a good experience. To to be with the guys my unit like, you just ...
KP:Yeah, a lot of, a lot of blood, sweat and tears, for sure. Working with folks that you have probably never had met in your entire life had you not joined the military. And you know, and that's what I love about folks like you and your,
Estefan Encarnacion, Esq.:You know, it's always a, it's a your battle buddies that were downrange as well. You know, you guys are all accomplished, accomplished professionals now, and at one time, one time you had each other's backs. And I'm so fortunate to have linked up with you Estefan. And I love your story, man overall. But if we were to wrap everything up here at the end, what piece of advice would you offer to any of our listeners, whether they're in uniform, or they're currently a veteran right now? challenge to really have that foresight as far as like what your MOS is. I mean, here's for sure. Like, don't, don't let your MOS have be like your guiding force for the rest of your life. Right? You don't have to live in that box. Right. That's one phase of life that you chose, right? Like that we chose to do that we don't have to be limited to that. That little box and whatever jobs are suited for that MOS after the fact, as a civilian. That's number one. Number two, definitely use, take advantage of your GI Bill, like, you know, your post 911 GI bill is a gift from like, it's there's so many benefits. Like, dude, get educated, like, go whether it's a vocational, whether it's college, like, just acquire a skill, like more skills, right? Like, don't stay stuck with your, with what you think you got, what you learn in your MOS during your time in service. Yeah, as far as, like, the TAPS program, I mean, it's forgettable, right? Like, there's just not much that, that you, everybody's just, I just want to get out, right? Like I was, like, just get the hell out of here. But definitely take advantage of your GI Bill. I mean, which is kind of like, don't get in too much trouble, because you still need to get out with an honorable discharge, so that you can actually take advantage of this, because so many of my buddies did not get that honorable discharge, right. And, you know, they kind of shoot themselves in the foot after the fact. So I mean, so there's, there's, you can upgrade your, your discharge after the fact. I don't know if a lot of people know about that or not. But there's paperwork that you can do to upgrade your discharge. So that you can actually at some point, use your GI bills, if you think that your discharge status is isn't going to help you. But if you decide to and like you had mentioned earlier, like get a mentor. But even beyond a mentor, like so veterans when they they go to college, a lot of veterans are considered like new resources. Because you don't you're not going into college straight after high school or anything like that. You're an older person, at least a few years older than the rest of your peers. There's, there's resources out there for you, right, not just like the veteran center, but also just just realize, like there's, when you're in college, people want to actually help you, like, your professors do care. And they, they they will, you know, help you and that's something that that I never took advantage of. Right. Like I was always you're not alone, right? That's like, you are not alone in this process. Like, you just need to open yourself up to get help. And I think that's like the most difficult thing for anyone is just having that willingness to, to I guess, make yourself feel uncomfortable. Like just you just have to be willing to get out of your low comfort zone. And yeah, you may stumble your words you may not know how to talk professionally, you may not know how to who to reach out to, but there's, there's people that are dedicated, that they're like, their sole purpose in college is to help you, you know, succeed and realize that right? You know, for hard charges, like our, you know, the infantry, you know, like all that all that, that division between infantry and non infantry, that goes out of the window once you're out, like,
KP:Oh, yeah, definitely. Definitely. I tell you what, my life, my perspective changed when I went down range and had to work with the Marines and work with so many different branches. And I have the utmost respect for the Marine Corps, after having worked with them several times, especially during the whole election phase in Iraq, and some of the things that I saw them do. And all that all that pre war stuff with the Marines versus the army and versus the Navy, or whatever, man, it goes out the window when you're downrange, and you're in the thick of it. Right?
Estefan Encarnacion, Esq.:Yeah, completely. Right. And then I don't know, like, one of the things that has helped me. And it's not because I like want to minimize the, the choice I made to join the military. But that's a phase of our lives. It's not the rest of our lives, right. It's a phase. And I think that a lot of guys have, and gals have that. Because, you know, I, I did realize that like, these are the most formative years of our lives, fresh out of high school, right? Like this is, this is like what you're put yourself through, that's not normal, like that military world is not the normal world. And that's one thing that you like, I think a lot of people need to just own that and just realize, like, you know what, yeah, you're right. Because I have a bunch of guys. Nothing will ever be the same. Like, I wish I was back here. Well, dude then just stay in, like, just stay? Do your 20 years of pleasant just retired, like, you know, just stay in there, if that's really what you want to do. But like, you have to make that that realization that like, once you're out, you're out, you're out, you're out. You can never expect the civilian world to be the same as the military. Just not. There's no one's out there going to boot camp to be a civilian, right? Like, that doesn't exist. So like, there's just to make peace with that. And and, yeah, there's no one. Unless you're a veteran, no one else is gonna have that experience that you that you have. But at the same time, you can't demand that other people kind of have some sort of pity for you, or demand that people like recognize your status as a better. Like, No, dude. Like, we all did this voluntarily to ourselves, right? No one forced me to join the Marine Corps, right? Like I did this on my own. Yeah, I think if we just if it would be helpful, right, like to transition is that when the transition happens here, it happens in your head, like, that's where the transition really happens. You just have to really be open to to it. Like realize, like, you know what, yeah, I'm out. I am out of the military. I am not there anymore. I cannot expect people, civilians to keep up with me in certain regards. Right. That's different.
KP:Yeah. Yeah. You know, I totally agree, you're totally different. You'll, it'll always be a part of you. But you shouldn't be angry at anyone else about, you know, what you had done and what they hadn't done. I totally agree with you on that. But, Estefan, if anyone out there who's listening to this podcast, might be interested in contacting you, is LinkedIn the best way to connect with you? Or maybe there's an email address?
Estefan Encarnacion, Esq.:So LinkedIn is a good way. I can have my email out there. I can I do have an Instagram page as well. So any of those social media platforms. You can call my office you know, emailing me is probably the best way to get in touch with me though, for sure.
KP:Yeah, cuz you know, you have a very fascinating story. Throughout your life, you've overcome a whole lot. Extremely intelligent man, right off the bat and with real wartime experiences, survived some serious traumatic situations in your life, man. And anyone listening to this you can scroll down to the show notes, I'll make sure that I link Estefan's contact information, everything that he wants to put out there. But if you're thinking about following the same path is as Estefan as far as you know, going into getting his Juris Doctorate and then becoming a practicing attorney, by all means, seek his assistance, his help, his guidance. Really appreciate your time today, Estefan I know you're extremely busy and you put, put aside some time and I know you were sick recently and really glad to see that that you're able to make our podcast today and maybe we can do something in the future but...
Estefan Encarnacion, Esq.:For sure man.
KP:Thank you for joining us. I appreciate that information.
Estefan Encarnacion, Esq.:Anytime man. I got, I got, we all got stories. So I'm happy to share mine.
KP:No doubt, no doubt and for everyone else out there. I hope you enjoyed today's podcast. I just want to remind you to stay tuned, stay focused, and stay motivated. Warriors Fallout
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