Holistic Healing and Trauma Recovery: Insights from Athena Desai

Transcript

WEBVTT

00:00:02.587 --> 00:00:03.649
Warriors fall in.

00:00:03.649 --> 00:00:04.932
It's time for formation.

00:00:04.932 --> 00:00:10.311
Today I decided to scale it back to a little bit more of a relaxing conversation.

00:00:10.311 --> 00:00:33.537
The last episode that I had was with a firefighter first responder existence when it comes to staying in the game and keeping your mind focused.

00:00:33.537 --> 00:00:35.704
So today I have Athena Desai.

00:00:35.704 --> 00:00:38.472
She's a multifaceted healer and practitioner.

00:00:38.472 --> 00:00:45.594
She integrates Eastern medicine, life coaching and creative expression to guide individuals through transformative healing processes.

00:00:45.594 --> 00:00:48.988
Athena, thank you for joining me on the Morning Formation today.

00:00:49.679 --> 00:00:50.905
Thank you for having me.

00:00:52.399 --> 00:01:15.156
You know, when I ran across your content I was very much impressed, mainly because I recently got back into yoga and for most masculine dudes, um, that wouldn't really necessarily be a thing.

00:01:15.156 --> 00:01:36.992
But I really believe that getting into something like that is great for the human body and the human mind, mainly because it forces us to turn our phones off and to turn the world off for at least one hour out of your entire week, or a couple of times a week if you go more than once, and it also helps us with our breathing and focusing on ourselves.

00:01:36.992 --> 00:01:45.087
So I just want to give you an opportunity to kind of talk about yourself a little bit and where you're from and what you're about.

00:01:46.430 --> 00:02:04.671
Sure, Well, I am a holistic trauma specialist, so I specialize in trauma through a bunch of different methods acupuncture, herbal and plant medicine, shamanic medicine, Reiki, trauma-informed yoga and coaching.

00:02:04.671 --> 00:02:16.881
And yeah, I grew up in upstate New York, not so far from here.

00:02:16.881 --> 00:02:18.122
I'm in Massachusetts now and I'm a first-generation American.

00:02:18.122 --> 00:02:34.729
So my parents and I have traveled the world quite a bit, and my dad's from India quite a bit, and my dad's from India, my mom's from the Philippines and I was never really 100% all one thing, except for American, oddly.

00:02:34.729 --> 00:02:42.888
So I think that opened my mind to studying lots of different things and just why people do what they do.

00:02:42.888 --> 00:02:51.752
I've always been so fascinated by that and I was actually in broadcast journalism before this.

00:02:51.752 --> 00:03:00.687
I was a radio journalist at NPR and I got pretty sick and had that wake-up call.

00:03:00.687 --> 00:03:11.991
I had to kind of be listening to my body in a way that I never had before and make some changes, and Chinese medicine helped me out so much in that.

00:03:11.991 --> 00:03:15.304
So that's what I kind of turned towards.

00:03:16.848 --> 00:03:19.713
Now, prior to that, were you involved in any Eastern medicine?

00:03:22.080 --> 00:03:22.820
Oh, let's see.

00:03:22.820 --> 00:03:25.846
So I started doing acupuncture as a patient in 2000.

00:03:25.846 --> 00:03:27.026
Both my parents are doctors.

00:03:27.026 --> 00:03:33.295
I come from a family of doctors, so I don't think I had really explored Eastern medicine as such.

00:03:33.295 --> 00:03:38.085
Eastern philosophy for sure, always really important to my dad, who's a Hindu.

00:03:38.085 --> 00:03:48.436
And, yeah, my parents love books and learning and definitely imparted that to me as I was growing up.

00:03:49.741 --> 00:04:04.875
Do you think some people need to go through a difficult time in their lives and are kind of forced to choose, sort of like a crossroad or a Y intersection on which direction to go.

00:04:04.875 --> 00:04:12.611
Either you go down the, the pain medication route, or you go more towards the med, the meditative route.

00:04:12.611 --> 00:04:33.579
And the reason I say that is because, uh, from personal experience, I was diagnosed at a young age with ulcerative colitis and uh, which is a, I guess, a digestive issue that folks can have, and a lot of folks, a lot of young folks, suffer from it today and doctors really can't pinpoint where it comes from or why it happens.

00:04:33.579 --> 00:04:47.822
And I know for me mine was more stress-induced than anything else, so it sounds like you kind of went through that as well sounds like you kind of went through that as well.

00:04:47.843 --> 00:05:14.560
Yeah, I think it's impossible to overstate the connection between our minds, our emotional states, um, and our trauma and the health of our body, our physicality, um, I hear you about that um-inducing that for you, and it was one of the things I fell in love with with Chinese medicine and actually have found it quite helpful in treating veterans.

00:05:14.560 --> 00:05:27.120
I started treating veterans in the beginning of my practice 12 years ago and kind of fell in love with it 12 years ago.

00:05:27.120 --> 00:05:27.781
I'm kind of fell in love with it.

00:05:27.781 --> 00:05:31.108
So you can always address multiple levels and layers of what's going on right.

00:05:31.148 --> 00:05:45.894
People can come in with pain or dysfunction and whether you talk about it or not, you can, because it's working with the energy and the whole person and all of their systems.

00:05:45.894 --> 00:05:53.913
It's always a way to be able to figure out why do you have this thing at this time?

00:05:53.913 --> 00:05:55.505
What is it trying to tell you?

00:05:55.505 --> 00:06:22.480
Usually our bodies are trying to have us live differently and sometimes we can have a lot of agency around that and choose as you um proposed, and sometimes when you're a kid, that's not really clear what the choices are or what to do, um, so there's a lot of sort of pulling back the layers on that when we work on that stuff as adults.

00:06:23.464 --> 00:06:29.632
I always tell people all the time that if you don't listen to your body, your mind and your body has a way of stopping you from doing whatever.

00:06:29.632 --> 00:06:30.783
And that's what happened to me.

00:06:30.783 --> 00:06:37.752
Like it, like everything, my busy schedule, my busy life came to a complete halt, um, and I had to figure it out.

00:06:37.752 --> 00:06:48.963
And the one thing that I learned that sometimes medicine can be nothing more than a bandaid, and it it's really up here and in here, uh, that that needs to be taken care of and nourished.

00:06:48.963 --> 00:07:02.545
Um, but as I was looking through your materials, I you know, I saw that your career had spanned, uh, different roles, as far as a musician, writer and an anthropologist we talked about before this right, um and a journalist.

00:07:02.545 --> 00:07:14.000
So how have all those different experiences that you've gone through influenced your approach to healing and your creation of soulful healing and counseling?

00:07:15.600 --> 00:07:16.922
Yeah, many different ways.

00:07:16.922 --> 00:07:17.901
Great question.

00:07:17.901 --> 00:08:17.983
I think one thing anthropology came in college, so one of the reasons I chose that different glasses, different lenses to look at people's motivations, inspirations, values, needs, desires, mores it just struck me as both kind of funny and perfect common sense that, according to where we are on this planet, at what time, we're going to be different and I am someone who's swum against the stream quite a bit in my time.

00:08:17.983 --> 00:08:25.192
That's kind of my MO, and it wasn't the easiest thing to own in the beginning.

00:08:25.192 --> 00:08:27.516
Um, so it was helpful to be like.

00:08:28.562 --> 00:08:42.932
You know, culture is the air that we breathe and if you can gain a certain level of awareness and consciousness around it, you can actually have so much more agency and so much more choice with it.

00:08:42.932 --> 00:08:57.034
And that's really important with trauma healing, because usually trauma involves our choice being taken away from us in some way.

00:08:57.034 --> 00:09:01.042
So returning to agency around it is paramount.

00:09:01.042 --> 00:09:35.336
It is paramount and spirituality definitely helps me have sort of the widest angle lens, like the biggest context for everything that's happening, because I can always connect back to something that's so much larger than me and that I am part and parcel of and that's part of how everything weaves together.

00:09:35.336 --> 00:09:36.857
It's all about connection, really.

00:09:36.977 --> 00:09:45.306
That's the thing that's the thread that is woven through all of my interests.

00:09:45.326 --> 00:09:49.528
I think your level of spirituality is something that I hope to achieve at some point in time in my life.

00:09:50.602 --> 00:09:53.971
It's one of those things where I was literally on the brink of.

00:09:54.942 --> 00:10:30.768
I have a lot of lower back issues, a lot of tight hip issues, like I mentioned, the ulcerative colitis thing, which I haven't had problems with in a very long time, and a lot of it is, I realized, coming from the childhood and growing up, going into the military, going to war, all these different things that I did throughout my whole life, I realized that my emotional cup was nearly full by the time I went into the military, and then going to war, going to combat, actually overfilled that cup.

00:10:30.768 --> 00:10:37.868
So when I came back, I wasn't the same person as when I left and I had gotten that feedback from people.

00:10:37.868 --> 00:11:11.273
I guess a few years after I came back, that I turned into somebody else, somebody different, yeah, and I've been trying to seek this spiritual journey, in a sense, and through yoga, through meditation and things like that, to try to get myself back to where I used to be, back to who I was before you say would be your pivotal moments that led you to transition from your broadcast journalism career to Eastern medicine and holistic uh holistic healing practices.

00:11:13.260 --> 00:11:15.690
Yeah, uh, I will definitely answer that.

00:11:15.690 --> 00:11:16.833
I want to acknowledge that.

00:11:16.833 --> 00:11:27.533
Um, it just makes perfect sense to me what you said and I have questions about whether or not we get back to who we were.

00:11:27.533 --> 00:11:30.817
Do we cultivate who we're becoming Right?

00:11:30.817 --> 00:11:45.823
It's not always so entirely separate, but I mean I asked myself that, with all my different threads in my background in broadcast news, I mean I totally ate it up.

00:11:45.823 --> 00:11:48.270
I just absolutely adored it.

00:11:48.270 --> 00:11:51.990
Um, I loved the adrenaline rush of it.

00:11:51.990 --> 00:11:57.345
I loved the mission, I love the people that I was working with, I loved working with sound and radio.

00:11:57.345 --> 00:11:59.828
Um, but I got really sick.

00:11:59.828 --> 00:12:04.183
Uh, yeah, my body just started breaking down.

00:12:04.784 --> 00:12:35.293
It turns out when you work that much and that hard and you're absorbing that much trauma without discharging any of it, I mean I was not aware enough to do that and I think about this parallel a lot with veterans actually, because I actually do think that trauma ignites warriorship, so it makes us prepared to be warriors should we choose that in many different forms?

00:12:37.681 --> 00:12:46.894
And it doesn't mean that we can occupy the same wavelength at the same speed, the same force all the time.

00:12:46.894 --> 00:12:54.692
I mean there's still natural rhythms to that right, and when we're super mission-driven, we tend not to listen, I think.

00:12:54.692 --> 00:13:04.952
Right, I mean, I just overrode everything that my body was saying for quite a while and then it just got to the point where I was like I'm not actually enjoying my life outside of work.

00:13:04.952 --> 00:13:06.822
I don't have a life outside of work.

00:13:06.822 --> 00:13:29.023
I had no balance whatsoever, and I tried to look 10 years down the line and ask myself how I would be doing, how my health would be doing, how my body would be doing, and I mean, the inevitable, obvious answer was um, you need a change.

00:13:29.023 --> 00:13:38.876
So, yeah, the body is such an incredible honest messenger.

00:13:38.876 --> 00:13:46.192
Um, so I hear that you've been listening to your body too, and that's so commendable, really awesome.

00:13:46.841 --> 00:14:16.405
Yeah, well, I was forced to, yeah, and I really, and I you know it's really weird because, especially for veterans and first responders that go through and witness a lot of trauma, sometimes folks will, I guess, make excuses for behaviors and things like that, but I think it takes a higher.

00:14:16.405 --> 00:14:26.042
If you're going to take a higher level of responsibility in a higher position career that's going to deal with trauma, you also have to accept the higher level of accountability and responsibility when it comes to taking care of your mind and your body.

00:14:26.042 --> 00:14:40.022
Um, and unfortunately in western culture, things like meditation, um, I go back to yoga because I mean it's the most surface thing out there, but it's, it's there, and I think a lot of people don't take advantage of it, right?

00:14:40.022 --> 00:14:50.456
Um, you know, and and I, what I find really unique is how you combine ancient and contemporary practices from both Eastern and Western traditions.

00:14:50.456 --> 00:14:57.214
So would you mind sharing how the integrative approach benefits the folks that you serve?

00:14:58.880 --> 00:14:59.503
Not at all.

00:14:59.503 --> 00:15:24.602
Yeah, I think in some ways, when you're rooted in shamanism and spirituality, it's impossible to not reach back towards ancient wisdom and I think the benefit of that is you can see actually over time what has survived and even thrived and had a rebirth over and over again and you can start to pay attention.

00:15:24.602 --> 00:15:25.907
Yoga is a perfect example.

00:15:25.907 --> 00:15:42.649
Right, I taught trauma-informed yoga at Homebase, which is a clinic for invisible wounds of war in New England MGH and Red Sox Foundation Joint Clinic, and oh man, I loved it so much.

00:15:42.649 --> 00:15:43.077
It was a lot of mostly dudes.

00:15:43.077 --> 00:15:50.114
And oh man, I loved it so much it was a lot of mostly dudes and mostly dudes who had not really tried yoga before.

00:15:50.114 --> 00:16:26.124
But in terms of the integration of ancient thousands of years right of wisdom and practice of yoga as the root, yoga as the root and then modern, I actually think a lot of the trauma-informed perspective that we talk more about these days is new sort of cutting edge, just another form or another level of consciousness that trauma lives in the body, right, it lives in our nervous systems.

00:16:26.124 --> 00:16:35.899
We can have very severe, very high level risk events happen to us.

00:16:35.899 --> 00:16:56.587
We can also have smaller things that are connected to things in our own past happen to us and either way, the nervous system responds as it does because of who you are and where you are and how your overall health is and where you are and how your overall health is.

00:16:56.587 --> 00:17:11.519
So I really love pulling the threads of just sort of again the steadiest drumbeats over time, like breathing, and if we can regulate our breathing, we can regulate our mind, pulling that into the present moment and doing it in a trauma-informed way.

00:17:13.301 --> 00:17:18.474
I tried to help people even be aware of what their breath was doing at first.

00:17:18.474 --> 00:17:27.498
Right, I mean, before you started doing yoga, did you have a sense of oh man, okay, I really need to catch my breath, I need to pause here.

00:17:27.498 --> 00:17:29.628
I'm using too much energy.

00:17:29.628 --> 00:17:35.627
This is like, too, I'm not getting done what I want to get done because I feel restless.

00:17:35.627 --> 00:17:37.753
Let me try grounding for a second.

00:17:37.753 --> 00:17:39.196
Like did you have an awareness of that?

00:17:41.105 --> 00:17:41.226
Um.

00:17:41.306 --> 00:17:45.876
no, no, I did not Um it didn't dawn on me until I became an instructor.

00:17:45.876 --> 00:17:50.531
Uh, so I'm a lot of you know, but I'm a firearms instructor.

00:17:50.531 --> 00:17:54.078
I also have instructed tactics before.

00:17:54.078 --> 00:18:14.838
Back when I was in the military, I worked as the S3 training officer, and it wasn't until then I realized the importance of breathing and how breathing has everything to do from I was just talking to my niece about this earlier has a lot to do with the max effort.

00:18:14.838 --> 00:18:28.999
When it comes to running, when it comes to shooting, when it comes to decision-making under stress and anxiety, breathing is the key factor for folks to stay in the fight and also make sound decisions.

00:18:28.999 --> 00:18:30.669
So it wasn't until that.

00:18:30.669 --> 00:18:32.535
That's when I realized the importance of breathing.

00:18:33.726 --> 00:18:34.531
Totally get that.

00:18:34.531 --> 00:18:36.570
Yeah, totally get that.

00:18:36.570 --> 00:18:38.739
And how universal?

00:18:38.739 --> 00:18:41.269
Is it right that you're shooting a gun?

00:18:41.269 --> 00:18:45.758
You're on a yoga mat, breathing is still there, right?

00:18:45.758 --> 00:18:48.714
It's the thread that goes through both of those things.

00:18:48.714 --> 00:19:08.990
Goes through both of those things, and something that my shamanic study has helped me realize is that the universe is constantly contracting and expanding, right, and that is what we are doing in microcosm, in breathing in and breathing out.

00:19:08.990 --> 00:19:20.113
So we have the opportunity, when we become conscious about that, to align with the ultimate expansion and contraction, right.

00:19:20.113 --> 00:19:23.445
There's sort of no end to how much we can align with that.

00:19:23.445 --> 00:19:26.712
Sometimes you only have a couple seconds.

00:19:26.712 --> 00:19:39.017
Sometimes maybe you take an hour out of your day and you're really training yourself to be in that dance, but either way, it's available to you and it's been true for millennia.

00:19:39.017 --> 00:19:41.330
So it's a pretty good bet, right.

00:19:42.173 --> 00:19:50.338
Yeah, specifically for veterans, have you worked with a lot of combat veterans?

00:19:50.338 --> 00:19:51.962
Yeah, you have.

00:19:51.962 --> 00:19:52.785
Yeah, you have.

00:19:52.785 --> 00:20:08.981
Yeah, have you seen any type of link or relationship between the veterans' past upbringing, childhood and also what they did in the military or perhaps just even being in the military?

00:20:08.981 --> 00:20:11.506
Have you seen any chain link between that, or perhaps just even being in the military have?

00:20:11.546 --> 00:20:12.646
you seen any chain link between that?

00:20:12.646 --> 00:20:19.492
I think that's what taught me so much about how trauma ignites warriors.

00:20:19.492 --> 00:20:37.165
I think I have yet to meet someone who's in the service who didn't have trauma before they enlisted Right and so yeah, I can say I personally have my own thoughts on that.

00:20:37.887 --> 00:20:50.093
Um, I think a lot of people that choose to join the military a lot of people not saying every and all, but a lot of people that choose to join the military come from a situation where, uh, there wasn't a whole lot of choice.

00:20:50.093 --> 00:20:56.535
It was either join the military or stay home and get involved in things that probably were not positive.

00:20:56.535 --> 00:21:00.455
They're not coming from the well-off families.

00:21:00.455 --> 00:21:04.134
They're coming from middle to lower class families, and that's just the truth.

00:21:04.945 --> 00:21:29.401
That's why recruiting stations are set up where they are, that leading to a lot of folks joining, having that, like I mentioned earlier, about your cup or your emotional cup already being completely full by the time you join, and then you're put in this situation where you're doing things that most others aren't doing, whether it's moving far away from home or it's deploying and things like that 100%.

00:21:30.006 --> 00:21:44.051
Yeah, I have also worked with a number of operators over the years and, yeah, I think part of your system that haven't healed.

00:21:44.051 --> 00:22:08.510
And then you go through combat and there are more wounds and the other wounds get opened right, because all trauma delivers a shock to the system.

00:22:08.510 --> 00:22:31.863
So you can kind of think about it as sort of hitting what was maybe like a pond with few ripples in it and then causing a whole bunch of ripples and distorted patterns that if you don't do the work of bringing them back together, they're just going to keep hurting you and other people.

00:22:31.863 --> 00:22:33.526
That's typically how it goes.

00:22:35.529 --> 00:22:56.252
So many people take on the brave, very, very brave work of slowing down and looking at that stuff, and I would say that's our job on the civilian side, and this is something traditional and indigenous societies did without question.

00:22:56.252 --> 00:23:01.895
Right, people choose the role of warrior.

00:23:01.895 --> 00:23:09.461
They have to be welcomed back into the tribe, they have to have time with elders to be able to debrief.

00:23:09.461 --> 00:23:11.962
They need time with healers to be able to cleanse.

00:23:11.962 --> 00:23:29.749
They need witnessing from the community, and that is how we can actually integrate what has happened and it doesn't matter from what point any of the trauma into our whole self with unconditional love.

00:23:29.749 --> 00:23:38.494
That's kind of the bottom line that I see and it's a lot of work but it takes a lot of support and there's a lot of support out there.

00:23:39.345 --> 00:23:42.051
It is, and one of the things that I think make it most difficult.

00:23:42.051 --> 00:23:59.977
Sometimes it's not about what you necessarily deal with overseas, it's about coming back here, and the reason I say that is because I think it's estimated to be less than 5% 6% of the US population ever serve in the military, and then it's less than 3% that actually ever go to war or go to combat.

00:23:59.977 --> 00:24:12.121
I think there's something to be said about looking back in history during World War II, when you had the majority of America involved in some way, shape or form.

00:24:12.121 --> 00:24:41.415
When it was all over and everyone came back here, it was much easier to stand in the room or sit in a room and be surrounded by folks that had a common wall with experience, and I think that's one of the most difficult things for folks to understand that are civilians is sometimes it's not necessarily what you deal with over there, it's coming back here and having to deal with the 95 plus percent um that didn't experience that and watched it on the news and it was a spectator, uh event for them.

00:24:42.645 --> 00:24:45.971
So, um, yeah, I mean it's again.

00:24:45.971 --> 00:24:57.813
Have we integrated people into the entire process or are we starting to get more and more separate from the fact that people are still fighting our wars out there?

00:24:57.813 --> 00:25:12.857
Right, I absolutely agree with you, and I do think we need to do better as a whole, as a society, and I do think this is a lot of why you see so much suicide.

00:25:12.857 --> 00:25:22.079
Um, we, we are not holding together, uh, and there's no reason for that.

00:25:22.079 --> 00:25:23.281
That is to our detriment.

00:25:23.281 --> 00:25:33.220
So I'm a huge proponent of building the bridges, um, as we need to, to make sure we're clear that we're all in this together.

00:25:34.125 --> 00:25:34.326
Right.

00:25:34.326 --> 00:25:37.353
What is your overall motivation?

00:25:37.353 --> 00:25:45.898
Inspiration with helping first responders and military veterans service members.

00:25:47.465 --> 00:25:48.127
Good question.

00:25:48.127 --> 00:26:00.116
I actually think it sort of started in news At least that's where I became conscious of it and 9-11 was a really influential point in my life.

00:26:00.116 --> 00:26:10.038
I was at NPR and it became a very deep wound for me that I wasn't aware that I would experience.

00:26:10.038 --> 00:26:40.076
I wasn't aware that I would experience, and so my own growth of my awareness of my warrior nature sort of grew in parallel to learning more about warriors here, and it just never made sense to me that we were asking so much of people when we hadn't really taken care or good care of people who had already been at war on our behalf.

00:26:40.076 --> 00:26:46.833
That never sat right with me, so I started to feel like I needed to give back in some way.

00:26:46.833 --> 00:26:58.315
So, yeah, when I got out of school, I had a little bit of seed money and I started a low to no cost acupuncture program for veterans, which was a hard sell, trust me.

00:26:58.315 --> 00:27:08.199
I worked really hard, um to try to tell people how awesome it was and not being part of the military community it was.

00:27:08.625 --> 00:27:16.539
Yeah, it's been really hard to sort of break down the necessary doors, but I am stubborn to a fault, so I keep trying.

00:27:26.355 --> 00:27:26.816
It's just so.

00:27:26.816 --> 00:27:37.730
Nontraditional Reiki, shamanic, shamanic practices is that, what is that you pronounce that are most appropriate for an individual's healing journey?

00:27:38.672 --> 00:27:39.534
it's a great question.

00:27:39.534 --> 00:27:42.825
It really depends on what they come in with.

00:27:42.825 --> 00:27:46.732
Some people know what I do and they ask right up front.

00:27:46.732 --> 00:27:50.967
With other people it's a bit more of an exploration.

00:27:50.967 --> 00:27:56.258
They know that something needs to shift and it needs to be on more than a physical level.

00:27:56.258 --> 00:28:00.944
Um, but yeah, it sort of depends on what I have at my disposal.

00:28:00.944 --> 00:28:07.601
I don't have a physical office anymore, so at the time then I could sort of choose from all my like needles.

00:28:07.601 --> 00:28:13.951
My Reiki comes through my hands and my body and my field, so I don't need to have anything other than that.

00:28:13.951 --> 00:28:17.159
If I'm coaching, I can do it like this or on the phone.

00:28:17.159 --> 00:28:47.185
The modality is what is at the heart of this inquiry, this conflict, this issue or problem for this person, right being able to learn to listen to pain as a messenger, and that can be any kind of pain.

00:28:47.185 --> 00:28:52.776
Um, yeah, I, I figure it out person to person to person.

00:28:52.796 --> 00:28:56.308
Yeah, it's a very individualistic basis, right, and it's also what they're open to.

00:28:56.308 --> 00:28:58.798
Like you talk about sticking needles in someone.

00:28:58.798 --> 00:29:00.846
They're not, uh, into needles.

00:29:00.846 --> 00:29:01.468
That you're not.

00:29:01.468 --> 00:29:03.372
You're not gonna be doing that to them.

00:29:03.372 --> 00:29:18.971
But, um, overall, you know with your work and supporting veterans, leaders and creatives out there, what unique challenges and healing needs do these different groups present and how do you think you best address them?

00:29:20.674 --> 00:29:25.488
That's great Leaders, warriors and creatives.

00:29:25.488 --> 00:29:26.790
Let me try and break it down.

00:29:26.810 --> 00:29:31.269
I mean, do they have anything in common, or is it very much different.

00:29:32.432 --> 00:29:35.703
Definitely I mean with leaders and anything in common, or is it very much different?

00:29:35.703 --> 00:29:37.365
Definitely I mean with leaders and warriors.

00:29:37.365 --> 00:29:48.733
One of the biggest things that I tend to see is that it's really hard to believe, as a warrior or a leader, that you need to take care of yourself and put your oxygen mask on first.

00:29:48.733 --> 00:30:26.278
That is something that I get a lot of resistance around until we actually kind of walk through the process and people can have the experience of their own different level of self-regulation and how much better they feel, how much more openly they can show up, how much more they can drop out of their mind and lead from their heart, how much more openly they can show up, how much more they can drop out of their mind and lead from their heart, how much more they're willing to be vulnerable in those spaces, and all of that allows us to hear what's going on for other people much better.

00:30:27.661 --> 00:30:33.676
And what you mentioned about the transitions coming back home again, that always made perfect sense to me.

00:30:33.676 --> 00:30:42.099
I mean, how are we asking people to go from Z to A with no process in between or little process?

00:30:42.099 --> 00:30:50.008
That's not how we work, that's not how nature works and we are part and parcel of nature.

00:30:50.008 --> 00:31:08.136
So with creatives there's a lot of people might come forward with feeling stuck and feeling like they can't really get to their authentic voice, and I would say that is an absolute thread between all of those three groups.

00:31:08.136 --> 00:31:15.769
That's kind of my jam right To be able to help people really hear their authenticity.

00:31:15.769 --> 00:31:19.281
We're always going to work better out of that place.

00:31:19.281 --> 00:31:26.345
I've spent a lifetime trying to not work from that place and to be more normal and accepted, and it's just not going to work.

00:31:26.345 --> 00:31:32.258
When your soul is knocking at the door, it's not something that goes away or that you can ignore.

00:31:33.645 --> 00:31:45.473
I would imagine, if they come to you, their, their, their, their soul is knocking at the door, because getting them to even come to the table to begin with is the first challenge in itself, and it can be very frustrating when people are their own worst enemy.

00:31:45.473 --> 00:31:47.950
Now, how do you, how do you deal with imposter syndrome?

00:31:47.950 --> 00:31:49.093
Oh my gosh.

00:31:50.095 --> 00:31:50.998
I have so much of it.

00:31:50.998 --> 00:31:59.019
I had a good friend help me prep for doing my podcasting and everybody's a victim of it right, Everybody.

00:31:59.019 --> 00:32:08.152
And this guy's a veteran too, and he was like I was like, oh, can I actually get onto veteran podcasts and say anything that's worthwhile?

00:32:08.211 --> 00:32:14.916
And he was like well, what would you do if you were just sitting in front of an actual veteran and I said I would double down on my authenticity?

00:32:14.916 --> 00:32:25.487
Because if you're feeling like you're out of reach and there's just something really vulnerable or exposing to say, try saying that.

00:32:25.487 --> 00:32:29.494
I often counsel people to do that and it works really well, right?

00:32:29.494 --> 00:32:33.762
Because I mean, I get it.

00:32:33.762 --> 00:32:48.207
I think it's the ego that has us try to impress other people, but at the end of the day and over time, it's not very satisfying, right?

00:32:48.207 --> 00:33:00.374
So if I feel like I am not an expert in a thing, my new tendency is actually to just say I am not an expert in this thing.

00:33:00.554 --> 00:33:01.894
I have this experience.

00:33:01.894 --> 00:33:03.615
Take it or leave it, Right?

00:33:03.615 --> 00:33:11.721
I mean, something I love about Eastern philosophy is it really says up front turn this over in your own mind.

00:33:11.721 --> 00:33:20.714
You don't have to just believe it, Experience it, embody it, practice it, see how it lands for you.

00:33:20.714 --> 00:33:23.626
If it doesn't resonate with you, fine, leave it where it is.

00:33:23.626 --> 00:33:31.699
But if it does, you have the ability to gain mastery in a way that you didn't have before, Right?

00:33:31.699 --> 00:33:32.420
That's pretty cool.

00:33:33.484 --> 00:33:59.724
So doubling down on just what is confronting to me and actually saying it out loud, that's my Believing in yourself, right yeah, doubling down and believing in yourself, yeah yeah, it can be a challenge for sure to break through that threshold, especially if you've never been in the military or first responder career field to to speak to that audience.

00:33:59.724 --> 00:34:15.905
Now, your overall involvement with the Veterans Yoga Project let's talk about that how and overall, like I guess how mindfulness, resiliency, uh works with that in trauma recovery.

00:34:17.827 --> 00:34:18.108
Yeah.

00:34:18.108 --> 00:34:23.672
So I was very happy to get my training in trauma informed yoga from them.

00:34:23.672 --> 00:34:28.740
Um, it was.

00:34:28.740 --> 00:34:32.369
I really did want to teach veterans.

00:34:32.369 --> 00:34:58.001
It's absolutely my favorite space of teaching for yoga, mentals of yoga, and weave through again sort of modern research about what works for veterans in those spaces.

00:34:58.001 --> 00:35:04.474
I have modified that over the years because of my Indian background.

00:35:04.474 --> 00:35:13.637
I also do throw a little bit more of the spirituality and the Eastern flavor in there, more of the spirituality and the Eastern flavor in there.

00:35:13.637 --> 00:35:30.672
But I think it was really helpful to teach me how to slow down with people, with veterans, with first responders, and how to meet everyone where they are.

00:35:35.315 --> 00:35:37.701
So people are going to come into a class with very different things and at a place like Homebase.

00:35:37.701 --> 00:35:56.456
Some people needed assistance devices, some people had limbs missing, some people needed to sit in a chair, some people were way more flexible than I was right, were way more flexible than I was right.

00:35:56.456 --> 00:35:59.121
I mean, it's the whole gamut of students that you see.

00:35:59.121 --> 00:36:12.637
So it really actually challenges you to be in a trauma-informed space, which is to say, first and foremost, you're driving this thing.

00:36:12.637 --> 00:36:22.623
I'm going to be up here and I'll show you the shapes and I'll tell you what they're about, but you are the only person inhabiting your body and you get to say this is too much for me right now, or this isn't enough for me right now.

00:36:22.623 --> 00:36:26.739
I feel like doing this, I don't feel like doing this.

00:36:26.739 --> 00:36:38.735
So you can come into those classes and if you want to take child's pose for 10 minutes, if you want to be in Shavasana the whole time, great, you're doing it perfectly, right, um, and that's.

00:36:38.735 --> 00:36:42.786
That's a pretty strong value, I think, with veterans, younger project.

00:36:42.867 --> 00:36:44.318
So but, how do you?

00:36:44.358 --> 00:36:47.083
challenge people, Like how do you challenge people?

00:36:47.083 --> 00:36:48.347
Cause the one thing that I've.

00:36:48.347 --> 00:36:59.931
I always kind of look at it Like if, if you and I go for a run, for example, how do I push the person next to me to break through that glass ceiling, I guess, and to try new things?

00:36:59.931 --> 00:37:01.219
Have you figured that out yet?

00:37:04.175 --> 00:37:04.938
Yes and no?

00:37:04.938 --> 00:37:06.943
Right, it's like a constant experiment.

00:37:06.943 --> 00:37:08.230
No, not at all.

00:37:08.230 --> 00:37:09.235
I mean, it's a great question.

00:37:09.235 --> 00:37:33.449
What I've noticed is that there are different ways to experience challenge and, honestly, it's less of a challenge to be in a room of male veterans and first responders and be like, okay, let's do this right, like that's not actually a challenge in that space If I'm asking them to turn the volume up to 11 and go super hard.

00:37:33.449 --> 00:37:36.219
Most people are pretty used to that.

00:37:36.219 --> 00:37:45.920
Depending on injury, right and illness, you may not be, but there's a quieter, subtler level of challenge that choose to not override your pain.

00:37:45.920 --> 00:37:59.938
Yes, it sucks that you can't do what everyone else is doing right now.

00:37:59.938 --> 00:38:04.748
Can you try to breathe into that and be with that?

00:38:04.748 --> 00:38:10.635
That's a different kind of challenge, right, but it's still a challenge, sometimes even greater, right.

00:38:11.257 --> 00:38:25.427
That's almost like a disclaimer Before you start something, you got to tell people that to really, hey, really push yourselves, don't stay, uh, where you're comfortable, necessarily, but let's try to achieve and progress each time and don't just lay in child pose the whole time.

00:38:25.427 --> 00:38:37.485
Don't just run at your own pace, but let's try to break through some different thresholds to just see some, I guess, overall progress in what you're trying to achieve right.

00:38:38.286 --> 00:38:40.657
Totally depends on the person, absolutely.

00:38:40.657 --> 00:38:47.878
For some people, being in child's pose at all is a total mark of progress because they've never let themselves rest.

00:38:47.878 --> 00:38:51.144
And this took me a while to.

00:38:51.144 --> 00:38:53.695
You know, I have the same thing right.

00:38:53.695 --> 00:38:57.876
I'm very mission driven and if I'm not doing it right, I'm not doing it at all, kind of thing.

00:38:57.876 --> 00:39:01.322
But that's where you have to really create the space.

00:39:01.322 --> 00:39:06.416
As a teacher, you actually have to embody that.

00:39:06.416 --> 00:39:17.626
However people show up, and whatever they do is okay, and there's a lot of wisdom like shamanic indigenous eastern wisdom about that.

00:39:17.626 --> 00:39:23.711
There's always something to work on and it doesn't have to look any particular way.

00:39:27.275 --> 00:39:28.137
It's kind of what is showing up for you.

00:39:28.137 --> 00:39:29.643
You know Right, yeah, yeah, no, it makes total sense.

00:39:29.643 --> 00:39:35.641
So overall, you've specialized in treating trauma, ptsd and emotional disorders.

00:39:35.641 --> 00:39:43.467
What would you say are some effective strategies that you found for transforming trauma into clarity and peace to take?

00:39:43.507 --> 00:39:52.105
that fog away from, because I know for me for a lot of years, um my, my deployment.

00:39:52.105 --> 00:40:05.829
I describe it as a sleep, like a sleepwalk, and the most frustrating part for me for many years was the difficulty of explaining myself.

00:40:05.829 --> 00:40:08.557
Everything felt very foggy.

00:40:08.557 --> 00:40:20.264
So what would you say would be some effective strategies, besides coming to the table, um, that you found for transforming trauma into clarity and peace, would you say?

00:40:21.166 --> 00:40:32.179
Yeah, I, I hear that, and that's actually a great example, cause I think a lot of people experience that fogginess and explaining yourself, telling your story.

00:40:32.179 --> 00:40:42.548
One thing I find very, very helpful is to bookend your day with practice.

00:40:42.548 --> 00:40:50.471
So, spiritual practice, mindful practice, however it is, you want to contextualize it.

00:40:50.471 --> 00:41:03.009
You're actually taking real time and intention, um, to sit down and focus on another thing Breathing.

00:41:03.009 --> 00:41:04.394
We have it right.

00:41:04.394 --> 00:41:08.001
If we're here and we're walking around, um, fantastic.

00:41:08.842 --> 00:41:32.634
For some people it's a yoga practice, it's some kind of ritual, um, and you do it at the times of day when there is still a little bit of quietness or return to quietness in the world, um, and that again helps you line up with a bigger energy of it, and that again helps you line up with a bigger energy of it.

00:41:32.634 --> 00:41:38.838
I would definitely recommend meditation and yogic breathing practices.

00:41:38.838 --> 00:41:45.809
You know being able to reset with breathing and meditation.

00:41:45.809 --> 00:42:36.675
Something else just popped into my head, so I have to say that too, there are definitely super helpful plant medicines to support us with rewiring what's going on in there, part of unraveling the knots of trauma and being able to pull out the threads and say you know what, okay, I'm actually done with this behavior that doesn't serve me anymore, but I I'm really going to keep this part of me that um has something to say and I'm going to to put into writing or painting or sculpture or some kind of art.

00:42:38.298 --> 00:42:46.976
Um, often you know a certain level of physical activity moving your body, um, and being conscious with your breath.

00:42:46.976 --> 00:42:48.804
A lot of people are doing that already.

00:42:48.804 --> 00:43:07.367
Um, so a tweak there could be intentionality, um, if you're running and you are maybe listening to something around visualization, or you're doing mantras or whatever it is, you're trying something totally new.

00:43:07.367 --> 00:43:12.407
You're going surfing for the first time, or Right, yeah, there's a lot that.

00:43:13.155 --> 00:43:24.929
I think one of the biggest things that you're fighting against is the concept, especially here in America, where everybody wants to take the wonder pill.

00:43:24.929 --> 00:43:28.583
So I have lower back issues.

00:43:28.583 --> 00:43:31.146
Well, easy Painkillers, take painkillers.

00:43:31.146 --> 00:43:31.614
Take painkillers right.

00:43:31.614 --> 00:43:45.130
Versus the long-term because there's always a teeter and a totter to those things versus the long-term, I guess, more natural way of handling things by breathing, relaxing, learning how to let go.

00:43:45.130 --> 00:43:52.929
I think in Western culture we have a tendency to just simply take that pill or press that button and it's fixed right.

00:43:52.929 --> 00:43:55.217
Do you see?

00:43:55.217 --> 00:44:06.643
A lot of people a lot of times try to go about a spiritual journey or try to find a more natural way to solve their issues and then they just simply give up because it's taking too long, and then it's out of frustration.

00:44:06.643 --> 00:44:08.065
What do you do for that?

00:44:09.548 --> 00:44:10.289
Great question.

00:44:10.289 --> 00:44:13.525
I don't see so much wholesale giving up.

00:44:13.525 --> 00:44:23.405
I definitely see the very human dance of one step forward, two steps back, and you know these things can work together.

00:44:23.405 --> 00:44:33.177
There's no shame in taking an aspirin or a painkiller on a day when you really need some support and everything else just isn't working.

00:44:33.177 --> 00:44:39.568
I definitely have patients and clients who take SSRIs and all of that stuff.

00:44:39.568 --> 00:44:41.117
It can all work together.

00:44:41.518 --> 00:44:49.420
I think the thing to remember is are you addressing the root of the tree or the branches, right?

00:44:49.420 --> 00:44:54.576
Because on those days when NSAIDs and painkillers help us, that's great.

00:44:54.576 --> 00:44:58.362
Sometimes you just need that support.

00:44:58.362 --> 00:45:05.023
But over time and at a deep level, is that actually getting to why you have this pain?

00:45:05.023 --> 00:45:07.708
All right, what's the root of that pain?

00:45:07.708 --> 00:45:08.996
When does it come up?

00:45:08.996 --> 00:45:10.297
What is it saying to you?

00:45:10.438 --> 00:45:14.804
I ask that question a lot to people and people who have never done it before.

00:45:14.804 --> 00:45:21.737
If you just slow down enough and are quiet and mindful enough and willing enough, you can hear it.

00:45:21.737 --> 00:45:27.744
So that is part of how I counter that.

00:45:27.744 --> 00:45:31.726
Yeah, you're very right.

00:45:31.726 --> 00:45:40.161
I think even you know, having been on this path for three decades or more at this point.

00:45:40.161 --> 00:46:00.407
There are definitely times when it gets so hard, and I am on my knees that I would like to have some cosmic version of that Phil Right Um, but the chance of it happening over again and of us missing the lesson and not actually transforming it um are pretty huge.

00:46:00.407 --> 00:46:11.103
So if you get a nudge that's repetitive um, I think it's usually an invitation to to do something radically different.

00:46:11.545 --> 00:46:17.742
Yeah, I think for me a lot of times, when it comes to veterans, I try to warn them to be self-aware.

00:46:17.742 --> 00:46:20.668
A lot of times you'll hear a pattern.

00:46:20.668 --> 00:46:26.864
So, for example, you go through a divorce, you'll hear your ex say this.

00:46:26.864 --> 00:46:33.326
You have friends that say the same thing Over the years, you hear the same common theme.

00:46:33.326 --> 00:46:44.239
And I think for some veterans and first responders out there, it's time to kind of look in the mirror and ask yourself like why do I have these problems over and over again in different situations and different scenarios?

00:46:44.239 --> 00:46:46.625
And I'm the common denominator here.

00:46:46.625 --> 00:46:58.476
And it's not that you're wrong or that you're bad or anything like that, but you got to be critical, um, about yourself and how you're behaving and what you're doing, and stop putting it on other people.

00:46:58.476 --> 00:47:03.458
And that's the one thing that I think over the years and me being a veteran, I can talk to veterans.

00:47:03.458 --> 00:47:14.036
That way, I can talk to them in a way like where it's a little bit more rougher, I think, than folks who are not a part of the, I guess, of that career family.

00:47:14.036 --> 00:47:25.603
And I want to mention this too is I've given people the advice over the years to not wait until you are at your brink.

00:47:26.423 --> 00:47:30.757
I gave advice to a niece of mine who grew up with a lot of childhood trauma.

00:47:30.757 --> 00:47:32.043
She's in her early 20s.

00:47:32.043 --> 00:47:32.445
I gave her advice.

00:47:32.445 --> 00:47:34.532
I said, mine, who grew up with a lot of childhood trauma, she's in her early 20s.

00:47:34.532 --> 00:47:35.054
I gave her advice.

00:47:35.054 --> 00:47:37.297
I said you need to go seek therapy now.

00:47:37.297 --> 00:47:47.996
Don't wait until you're 30 years old and all those things that you've internalized and you've kept inside just come out again, because it'll be like vomit, it'll just come right out.

00:47:47.996 --> 00:47:58.461
It's better that you start dealing with this, with the issues that you've had growing up, instead of putting them away, versus just letting everything just explode inside of you.

00:48:01.344 --> 00:48:03.900
A lot of times we need to give people that type of advice.

00:48:03.900 --> 00:48:08.880
We're not doing enough mentoring, enough coaching each other.

00:48:08.880 --> 00:48:10.902
We're too afraid to have those conversations.

00:48:10.902 --> 00:48:35.467
I have so many more questions for you, but I know that we're we're getting up to an hour and I, before we get off here, I want to make sure that I cover some of your upcoming projects and initiatives that you have, um, from my understanding, um, you have some some things coming up with soulful healing and counselinging, as well as Edgewalkers Healing Cooperative.

00:48:36.288 --> 00:48:36.668
Is that right.

00:48:37.876 --> 00:48:40.744
True and sort of all TBD.

00:48:40.744 --> 00:49:03.824
One thing that is going to be an offshoot, I think, of Soulful healing and counsel is this sacred outlaws approach, um, which is really me stepping into, swimming against the stream and doing it on behalf of disrupting the status quo for the highest and best Right.

00:49:03.824 --> 00:49:11.481
So, um, that is sort of an approach, a lens, um, and maybe a thing with a name.

00:49:11.481 --> 00:49:12.864
Uh, that's coming.

00:49:12.864 --> 00:49:14.836
Uh, there's more.

00:49:14.836 --> 00:49:20.197
I support people with prep and integration coaching who are uh stepping into medicine journeys.

00:49:20.197 --> 00:49:21.159
So more of that.

00:49:21.159 --> 00:49:30.228
I am taking an exam to get, uh, the first level of certification with the international coaching federation next week.

00:49:30.228 --> 00:49:45.947
So, yeah, there's a lot down the pike, a lot of working with men in various groups to learn mindfulness and grounding and spirituality.

00:49:45.947 --> 00:49:51.827
So I will keep everyone posted, mostly, mostly on Instagram, about that stuff.

00:49:53.336 --> 00:49:55.023
Got to fight that imposter syndrome right.

00:49:55.023 --> 00:50:15.110
You belong where you belong and, at the end of the day, I really appreciate all the work that you've done for our veteran and first responder community and, recognizing the importance enough to face some of your energy in that direction to help us out, I really appreciate that.

00:50:15.110 --> 00:50:22.568
And over the next few years, how do you envision the evolution of integrative healing practices?

00:50:24.635 --> 00:50:26.543
For society, for all of us.

00:50:26.855 --> 00:50:27.960
For society yes.

00:50:39.922 --> 00:51:02.639
I think we're going to keep turning more to them, yes, and we are, I think, going to be called to knowing ourselves more deeply and, again, it's very hard to do that if you're always working at the branch level of the tree right, like to get to the root.

00:51:02.639 --> 00:51:06.027
We're going to have to actually, like, inhabit our bodies.

00:51:06.027 --> 00:51:08.516
We don't do that all the time.

00:51:08.516 --> 00:51:16.902
We are going to have to embody the principles and the values that we are studying.

00:51:16.902 --> 00:51:29.730
We're going to have to learn how to talk to each other and be intimate with each other in ways that really work and are healing.

00:51:29.730 --> 00:51:42.199
I think we've probably had our full, hopefully, of so, so much conflict and what you mentioned before actually about not standing in responsibility for yourself and your life.

00:51:42.199 --> 00:51:47.168
That's a pretty big part of it as far as I can see.

00:51:47.168 --> 00:51:52.106
So my hope and my sense is that we will.

00:51:52.106 --> 00:51:56.918
There will be more and more people starting to turn into it.

00:51:56.918 --> 00:52:00.644
Be curious about it, yeah.

00:52:01.347 --> 00:52:06.099
And I think over the years we've we've slowly crept in that direction.

00:52:06.199 --> 00:52:20.985
We people are more mindful now of the dangers, of the teeter and totter of prescription medication, illegal drugs, what that can do to you, I mean, it's still a lot of victims still.

00:52:21.175 --> 00:52:28.702
And I don't mean to put prescription drugs they have a place right, but we all know that they're the number one most abused drugs.

00:52:28.702 --> 00:52:31.909
Between them and legal drugs is the prescription drugs that people do.

00:52:31.909 --> 00:52:40.155
But I'm also hopeful, like you, that we start creeping towards a more positive way to take care of our minds and our bodies.

00:52:40.155 --> 00:52:51.003
Just through the different, I guess, events that we've been through whether it's 9-11 or Iraq or Afghanistan in my lifetime anyways that we've dealt with, we're a little more open to these new things, new ideas.

00:52:51.003 --> 00:52:55.284
Now I have so many more questions for you and I hope this is the last time I see you.

00:52:55.284 --> 00:52:59.445
I hope that you're willing to come back on the podcast again because I have some more questions for you.

00:52:59.445 --> 00:53:08.862
I do find your work very fascinating and I highly appreciate it, but was there anything that I didn't mention during this podcast that you would like to talk about or mention?

00:53:10.443 --> 00:53:10.664
Oh.

00:53:10.664 --> 00:53:25.317
So I mean, yeah, I feel like we could keep going, um, and I think I might resist the urge right now to analyze whether or not I've said everything.

00:53:25.317 --> 00:53:34.190
Um, yeah, I think the thing that we always talk around um is love.

00:53:34.190 --> 00:53:41.309
It really actually does come down to loving yourself unconditionally and knowing yourself as love.

00:53:41.309 --> 00:54:09.603
Um, and that's a whole other show, or 10, right, um, but I get shy about saying that because I know that it can be seen as weak or woo or out there, um, but I am 100% confident that, whatever path you travel down, you will find that most of the answers, if not all, are there.

00:54:09.603 --> 00:54:12.463
So that's the only thing I'd add.

00:54:13.416 --> 00:54:15.942
Yeah, that sounds like a whole nother episode in itself, right?

00:54:15.942 --> 00:54:17.786
So no, I really appreciate you.

00:54:17.786 --> 00:54:19.277
And what's the best way?

00:54:19.277 --> 00:54:21.884
What's your, what's your poison?

00:54:21.884 --> 00:54:23.387
As far as social media?

00:54:23.387 --> 00:54:28.800
What's your, what's the best way that folks can follow you and find out what's the latest um on all of it is Athena.

00:54:30.262 --> 00:54:33.327
So I do mostly Instagram.

00:54:33.327 --> 00:54:37.818
I have a work Instagram that's soulful healing and counsel.

00:54:37.818 --> 00:54:39.702
That's C O U N C I L.

00:54:39.702 --> 00:54:45.320
On Insta, I do also have a music one that's just my full name, and I have a music website.

00:54:45.320 --> 00:54:46.242
That's like that too.

00:54:46.242 --> 00:54:48.007
I'm also on LinkedIn.

00:54:48.007 --> 00:54:53.255
I'm so happy to connect with anyone on either of those places.

00:54:53.255 --> 00:54:55.925
My contact info is there.

00:54:55.925 --> 00:55:02.501
If anyone was intrigued by anything that we brought up and wants to talk more, I'm always here for it.

00:55:03.382 --> 00:55:11.371
I didn't even touch on your musical background, which I had questions on that as well, but I will save that for another time and I'll make sure that in the show.

00:55:11.371 --> 00:55:17.847
But I will say that for another time and I'll make sure that in the show notes I put all your different social medias down there for folks out there listening.

00:55:17.847 --> 00:55:21.068
If you're interested in following Athena, go down to the show notes.

00:55:21.068 --> 00:55:26.554
If this is a podcast, if it's on YouTube, you can find it right there in the notes below.

00:55:26.554 --> 00:55:28.583
I'll make sure I put it in the description of the video.

00:55:28.583 --> 00:55:30.699
But, thank you so much.

00:55:30.699 --> 00:55:32.989
Below I'll make sure I put it in the description of the video.

00:55:32.989 --> 00:55:34.074
Um, but thank you so much, athena.

00:55:34.074 --> 00:55:50.177

Holistic Healing and Trauma Recovery: Insights from Athena Desai

Listen On

Recent Episodes